Atlanta, GA

Bob Foreman

The Science behind HOD / W4G is called "Cathodic Protection" (CP)

Atlanta, GA

Bob, per your quote above, do I understand you correctly in saying that whatever surface area you have on your cathode you should be 20% smaller on the anode?

I've noticed that my 1/4 - 20 bolt is not holding up to well in the long run. If I were to go to a 1/2 inch bolt it would almost be 20% slighter than my cathode.

Or am I missing something in all of this?

Hanover, Pa.

2005 Dodge Ram Quad Cab 4.7 L

23 MPG Rural/28 Highway

1 Cross Cell, 2 Dual Efies for pre and post cat, 1 Excalibur for other sensors.

www.water4gas-glenville.com

Anyone who owns a boat, and keeps it in the water knows about Galvanic corrosion.

2 DIS similar metals, submerged in an electrolyte will normally conduct a current between them.

1 copper strip and 1 zinc strip stuck into a lemon, and you can run a small digital clock.

For boats, you dunk your outdrive into salt water, and over time it will disintegrate.    (Iron, aluminum, brass all together in salt water, the current generated will slowly erode everything starting from the least "Noble" metal.)

Now, since we (Boaters) don't want to haul our boats out of the water all the time, we need some protection from this naturally occurring phenomenon.

Attach a pice, or pieces of zinc to your outdrive, and viola!  The zinc corrodes first.  Less noble.

What part of the automobile is in need of cathodic protection?

What cathode are we trying to protect?  The one in the jar?  Not gonna happen unless you dunk something else in there.

Cathodic protection was first described by Sir Humphry Davy in a series of papers presented to the Royal Society^[1] in London in 1824. After a series of tests, the first application was to the HMS Samarang^[2] in 1824. Sacrificial anodes made from iron were attached to the copper sheath of the hull below the waterline and dramatically reduced the corrosion rate of the copper. However, a side effect of the CP was to increase marine growth. Copper, when corroding, releases copper ions which have an anti-fouling effect. Since excess marine growth affected the performance of the ship, the Royal Navy decided that it was better to allow the copper to corrode and have the benefit of reduced marine growth, so CP was not used further.

For larger structures, galvanic anodes cannot economically deliver enough current to provide complete protection. Impressed current cathodic protection (ICCP) systems use anodes connected to a DC power source (a cathodic protection rectifier). Anodes for ICCP systems are tubular and solid rod shapes or continuous ribbons of various specialized materials. These include high silicon cast iron, graphite, mixed metal oxide, platinum and niobium coated wire and others.

A cathodic protection rectifier connected to a pipeline.

A typical ICCP system for a pipeline would include an AC powered rectifier with a maximum rated DC output of between 10 and 50 amperes and 50 volts. The positive DC output terminal is connected via cables to the array of anodes buried in the ground (the anode groundbed). For many applications the anodes are installed in a 60 m (200 foot) deep, 25 cm (10-inch) diameter vertical hole and backfilled with conductive coke (a material that improves the performance and life of the anodes). A cable rated for the expected current output connects the negative terminal of the rectifier to the pipeline. The operating output of the rectifier is adjusted to the optimum level after conducting various tests including measurements of electrochemical potential.

A side effect of improperly performed cathodic protection may be production of hydrogen ions, leading to its absorption in the protected metal and subsequent hydrogen embrittlement of welds and materials with high hardness. Under normal conditions, the ionic hydrogen will combine at the metal surface to create hydrogen gas, which cannot penetrate the metal. Hydrogen ions, however, are small enough to pass through the crystalline steel structure, and can in some cases lead to hydrogen embrittlement.

"As a Galvanic (or Natural) Cell, we simply attach a string of Anodes to the Steel Pipeline by way of a steel cable. The naturally occurring Current flow will be from the 'more nobel' STEEL Pipeline, through the cable to the 'less nobel' Magnesium. <It's a natural 'Battery'>.   "

Yes, by placing a steel pipe in the ground, it comes into contact with water and different minerals(electrolytes), and different metals in the soil.  Thusly it generates a current, and corrodes.  Connect a cathodic protection system, induced or not, and the pipleline doesn't corrode, the cathode does.

The Sciences behind H.H.O. are   Chemistry.   Physics.

hope that helps.

Water Man       

Hello Imstan, it is a 'rule of thumb' -- and my suggestion. 

If your W4G double helix wires were perfectly balanced and equal, all would be well ... for awhile.  However, your Anode -- seeming to 'sacrifice itself' to protect the Cathode -- will begin to 'waste' away.   Hence the HUMAN terminology; "Sacrificial Anode" -- "Cathodic Protection" -- and the like.  

At THAT time, (almost 200 years ago), they were dealing with a 'new' science -- and like US Today -- grappling with it.  Why does THIS work sometimes -- and not at OTHER times?  Why do we get conflicting data?  Why is MORE, NOT always better?

When the electrolyzer is SHUT Down = BOTH Anode & Cathode will be subject to the very corrosive water electrolyte.  However, AS LONG AS THE UNIT IS FUNCTIONING, the Cathode is ‘Protected’ from this corrosion..!  This is “Cathodic Protection” (CP) - - the Science behind W4G / HOD..!  

CP Companies can dig up their pipelines many DECADES later - - and find them ‘almost brand new’.  In theory, this can go on for hundreds of years..!

CP Companies also ‘split water’ in much the same way we do, into it’s constituent parts, Hydrogen and Oxygen = but on a smaller scale.  Those high Water Towers you see around the country are protected this way.  While ‘Cathodic Protection’ is for Anodes and Cathodes in an electrolyte, water or soil.  Above ground, or out of the water, different measures must be taken; Paint, Mastic, Tape, to name a few.

On the high Water Towers, the internal, underwater portion of the steel structure is protected by ‘splitting the water’ - - and lining the steel surface (The Cathode) WITH HYDROGEN ATOMS..!  The Anode is a Platinized-Niobuim (Pi-Ni) wire, 0.063” in diameter - - and it lasts for about THIRTY Years..! 

Sorry to be so long-winded, but it’s a big subject.
Bob Foreman

P.S.: Another 'Eye Opening' Test = a SS Anode (+) and a solid COPPER Cathode (-) wire..!   Enjoy..!   

 

The Science behind HOD / W4G is called "Cathodic Protection" (CP)

Atlanta, GA

bob foreman (10/13/2008)

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P.S.: Another 'Eye Opening' Test = a SS Anode (+) and a solid COPPER Cathode (-) wire..!   Enjoy..!   

Thanks Bob, I will try that. I'm too tired right now to do much else, but I'll give it a whirl tomorrow. However the above quote you said to use copper, I posted in another thread somewhere on here that I was using stainless steel battery straps and that I found out they weren't pure SS, but had a copper core. Someone (can't remember who, sorry) said that using copper in an electrolysis device created toxic fumes and polluted the water. So, I'm not too keen on going down that road again.

Or because of the "cathodic protection' you talking about, this experiment will leave the copper relativley alone while corrupting the stainless? If that is true, then there should not be any toxic fumes or polluted water or am I off base and need to get some sleep?

Hanover, Pa.

2005 Dodge Ram Quad Cab 4.7 L

23 MPG Rural/28 Highway

1 Cross Cell, 2 Dual Efies for pre and post cat, 1 Excalibur for other sensors.

www.water4gas-glenville.com

imstan (10/13/2008)

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bob foreman (10/13/2008)

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P.S.: Another 'Eye Opening' Test = a SS Anode (+) and a solid COPPER Cathode (-) wire..!   Enjoy..!   

Thanks Bob, I will try that. I'm too tired right now to do much else, but I'll give it a whirl tomorrow. However the above quote you said to use copper, I posted in another thread somewhere on here that I was using stainless steel battery straps and that I found out they weren't pure SS, but had a copper core. Someone (can't remember who, sorry) said that using copper in an electrolysis device created toxic fumes and polluted the water. So, I'm not too keen on going down that road again.

Or because of the "cathodic protection' you talking about, this experiment will leave the copper relativley alone while corrupting the stainless? If that is true, then there should not be any toxic fumes or polluted water or am I off base and need to get some sleep?

Hello Imstan <> GOOGLE the terms "Cathodic Protection", "Sacrificial Anode", "Galvanic" and you should be able to recognize the application to HOD / W4G.  If you have never tried using COPPER as an electrode -- let me tell you, they will corrode away VERY quickly. 

ON THE OTHER HAND -- As in my PS above; if you use a SS ANODE and a COPPER Cathode = YES; the SS Anodes will Corrode away = leaving the Solid COPPER Wire CATHODE in a PRISTINE condition.   An Example of "Cathodic Protection" at its Best..!

1> Allow this "Test Electrolyzer" to run CONTINUOUSLY..!
(With the unit turned off = BOTH Anode & Cathode will be subject to corrosion in the watery electrolyte)
2> Make Anode / Cathode of roughly equal size.
3> As the SS ANODE (+) is corroded Away = Replace ONLY the SS ANODE.
4> NOTE the condition of the COPPER Cathode..!  = It will remain in GOOD condition..!
5> After replacing the SS ANODE several times = you may conclude that the ANODE has indeed, "Protected the Cathode".  A Sacrificail Anode.

On the CP side of the Science, the STEEL pipelines (Cathodes) would be protected.   On the HOD / W4G side of THE SAME Science = expecting this, we would make our Anodes HEAVIER.   = JUST as described by Ozzie, in the E-books..!   4-wire Anodes and 2-wire Cathodes.  
Bob Foreman

The Science behind HOD / W4G is called "Cathodic Protection" (CP)

Atlanta, GA

Hello Arkijak,

Assuming you are serious, the answer is: NO -- what is done, is done. 

However, Ozzie pointed this out, early on, saying that when using equal sized anodes & cathodes, reversing the polarity after signs of Anode corrosion, would effectively double their life.

THE ANODE IS CONSUMED, WHILE THE CATHODE IS NOT..!   When you reverse the polarity, the unconsumed, pristine, Cathode (-), NOW becomes the Anode (+).  

While the partially-consumed Anode (+), now becomes the Cathode (-) and is allowed to rest -- "protected" by the Anode.    <clear as mud..?..>    

Bob Foreman

P.S.: MOST of you are still using SS -- and that's fine. 

When your electrolyte gets muddy <with Anode corrosion> -- you just dump it out, rinse and make a new batch. 

When the Anode begins to show signs of bad deterioration -- or actually breaks -- 9 times out of 10, you only need to replace the Anode.  The Cathode will be in MUCH better shape -- and has a longer life.

Atlanta, GA